By David Webb, 11th January 2010

This, the second of two interviews done with Emily Kwok and Valerie Worthington, is meant to highlight the work being done by both, alongside fellow world champion Felicia Oh over in the United States of America and Canada to promote women’s grappling. At various intervals Emily and Val are responsible for sharing their world-class knowledge on a number of women only camps with an ever-increasing number of dedicated and committed female grapplers. For further information on the camps in question check out: http://www.womensgrappling.org

Enjoy!

Interview:

KombatClinic.com: Emily and Val, thank you for taking time to do this follow up joint interview for KombatClinic.com could we start with a little background to how you two met? I guess as world-class Brazilian Jiu Jitsu athletes it must have been through your sport, right?

Emily Kwok: Yes!  We met at the 2007 ADCC North American Trials where we fought each other in the first round and since then have travelled in the same circles. (Emily) Felicia [Oh] and I met in California as I’d fly out for tournaments and was introduced by a mutual friend.

KC: Who came up with the idea of women’s grappling camps or womensgrappling.org?

Val Worthington: Felicia and a student of hers by the name of Alaina Hardie first generated the idea. Alaina had begun studying BJJ and was very inspired by it and looked up to some female athletes in the field. I believe she approached Felicia with the idea of doing a women’s only grappling camp.  Whereas womensgrappling.org was the result of a discussion we all had where we went with a broader name than womensgrapplingcamp.org because we realized we could do a lot more with/for women’s grappling and it would be useful to have a website that reflected that.

KC: Was the rationale behind the women’s grappling camps simply because of a lack of opportunities for women interested in grappling or are they almost a natural progression from the work you maybe do at various seminars or tutorials within you own academies?

EK: It took everyone by surprise really. Alaina was a white (maybe blue) belt at the time and thought it would be a good idea because there didn’t seem to be much offered for women in the sport.

I think Felicia, Val and I were part of a different generation of women in BJJ where we were the only woman present in the academy, and had learned to join in and just accept what was offered for men. None of us foresaw the need or popularity of it.

VW: You can talk to Alaina about her rationale, but one of the things I think the camp gives women is the opportunity to train with other women for an extended period of time. So often, women who train are the only women at their specific academy. So, while the number of women in the sport is growing, women can still feel isolated and/or like the only opportunities they ever have to train with other women is when they are competing against them at tournaments. The camp seems to be getting the word out that women want to make a meaningful contribution to the world of grappling, and those opportunities seem to be opening up more and more.

KC: I recently listened once again to the interview you both gave [along with Felecia Oh] over on the Fightworks Podcast (issue #181) with Bruce Hoyer and in listening to you talk about your women’s grappling camps what struck me and what is evident for all to appreciate is your consciously thought out approach to giving all women that attend a first-class, positive learning experience.

EK: Absolutely. I owe my progression in the sport to men, but that being said, it wasn’t always easy. It can be a very masculine sport and is most definitely a masculine environment. As women I think we’ve often had to be resourceful in how we fit in and managed to survive amidst a lot of testosterone! Being able to provide a positive experience at these camps for me (and I’m pretty sure Val and Felicia would agree) is a great opportunity because for the first time, we are giving these ladies room to be who they are, giving them a place to appreciate the sport the way they need to. 

KC: Paying attention to you guys talk it seems that you all understand (maybe from your own experiences) that with women in general it is essential that trust and commitment to safe and accountable learning are paramount if the woman is 1). To enjoy the learning experience 2). Return to training and 3). Ultimately progress and develop. Is this a fair assumption? 

VW: This is a fair assumption, but not just for women. One of the things we discuss (probably ad nauseam) at the camp is that as women, we need to be able to tell the difference between issues that are specific to women in grappling and issues that are applicable to all grapplers, male and female, who are new to the game. With women, there is the added issue of the fact that the close contact can be awkward at first (if a man and a woman roll with each other), but if everybody is there for the same reason—to learn to grapple and to get better at it—then that issue dissipates quickly.

EK: And I think it’s funny how the 3 of us until later in our careers did not have other women to bounce these thoughts off of. We have been learning a lot about ourselves and as much as we are providing a place for other women to relate to each other, we are finding a place for ourselves as well. I suppose it’s about realizing that we haven’t been alone in feeling this way about our development, but it’s our own experiences that have been largely ignored or put aside.

KC: You also touched upon the fact that there may indeed be two types of beginners (male and female) and many instructors forget that rolling around on the floor with virtual strangers may be perfectly natural for men but for women it is somewhat different. From my own experiences in coaching I am aware that many women would not have continued their training if other women had not been on the mats too. Is it your experience that women generally get more out of being empowered by female coaching staff than males? And on the flip side to this, how have male athletes responded to you teaching them?

VW: You know, I don’t have enough access to female grapplers to know whether they get more out of being coached by female coaching staff. One thing Emily, Felicia, and I all have in common is the fact that any progress we have made in the sport is the direct result of coaching we received from men, men who took an active interest in our progress and helped us improve. I was lucky in that I loved grappling so much that I just wanted to learn, and I didn’t care who from. But then again, I can see how some women who might love grappling might also do better in a more female-oriented environment.

EK: I think it definitely helps to have other females present. If you are fortunate enough to have senior female students or a female instructor, it often sets an example to anyone coming into the sport that ‘women do this too’.  That’s not to say that females don’t exist alone in some academies, because many of us still do, but I think it might be fair to say that those females are anomalies!

As for male athletes responding to female instruction, it’s interesting. Some men are open to learning from any black belt period. In fact, some are very excited and supportive of female instructors. Others, perhaps the majority, are somewhat sceptical and want to see you prove your skills to them. Then there is a minority who seem to think it’s laughable that a woman could teach them to fight. 

VW: As for how my male team-mates have responded to me teaching them, they haven’t really had a choice. But seriously, what helps a great deal is that my male team-mates and instructors who are black, brown, and purple belts simply treat me like another instructor. And so the lower belts follow their lead and do the same. It helps that over time I have developed confidence not only in my game, but also in my ability to teach and provide a meaningful learning experience for students.

KC: Do you think the male reactions would have been any different if your had not been World Champions in your own right?

EK: I think their reaction would be just the same. I think their sentiment really revolves around their own perceptions of women and whether they respect our knowledge and skills.

VW: The titles certainly help. But I wouldn’t have had the opportunity to compete on the level I have if I hadn’t put in the mat time, day after day, and worked as hard as any of the guys to improve. In other words, doing well at tournaments definitely confers credibility. But the capacity to do well at tournaments comes from mat time, and it’s also that consistency that your students and team-mates see and that makes a lasting impression.

KC: Going back to the element of trust that female attendees seem to require from a coach. The issue of “spazzy white belt guy” was prevalent in an interview I heard – the stereotypical overzealous beginner who is either overly keen to learn and doesn’t pay attention to his training partners needs or is simply a ignorant tool.

I am sure all of the readers have come across a similar pain in the ass, but do you think that this kind tends to affect women beginners mindsets because of the negative learning experience they get from drilling or rolling or is it more of a perceived and apparent notion that ‘every gym has a “spazzy white belt guy” so gyms aren’t for me’ philosophy that is responsible for a low uptake in grappling by women or indeed them not taking that first step into the gym in the first place?

EK: I think all new students, not just females, should acknowledge the ‘spazzy white belt’.  However, the sport can look intimidating and aggressive as it is, so I certainly don’t think watching a ‘SWB’ helps the situation! Most females don’t want to be put into a position where they could be in danger, and trying to learn how to defend yourself from that position can be a scary thing.  Overcoming the fear of stepping on the mats is a challenge enough.

VW: I agree; generally speaking a grappling gym is an incredibly intimidating place for a newbie or an outsider. That’s not by design; it’s just a fact of the sport. If you are brand new, you have no idea what you are watching. It looks violent, vaguely sexual, and completely weird. Most people, men and women alike, are not interested in grappling because they can’t really make sense of it. The UFC is changing that, of course, and it seems it is changing that for men and women in equal measure.

Anyone interested in learning grappling should put self-preservation at the top of the priority list. It’s not only women who have to worry about spazzy white belt guy. I know plenty of big guys who have been hurt by the newbie. There are different ways of handling that; one obvious way for women and smaller guys to handle it is to get the instructor to help them choose appropriate training partners until they can do so on their own.

KC: It seems from an outsider’s point of view that your camps have a great community element and a networking aspect, in so far as many of the attendees have brought something into the group that you can rely on or share amongst the camp to foster further development, for example, past Judo backgrounds, sports nutrition and sports psychology. Was this something that you planned to accept before the first camp or did this aspect just evolve as the camps grew in popularity?

VW: Again, you can talk to Alaina about her master plan, but from my perspective, we had a vague idea that a camp would be pretty cool, but we had no idea that it would have “legs.” So we were interested in getting involvement from anyone and everyone who was willing because we wanted to provide a good experience for the campers, and we wanted to rope people in before they knew what they were signing on for. Keep in mind that we’ve only done two camps, so not much has had time to evolve. So far it has been very organic, though we’re working on getting more organized!

EK: I think we were always open to it, and as the camps have continued, the community has evolved. It has a very organic feel and I think the campers really enjoy it. We want to foster an environment where these ladies can be heard and contribute what they uniquely offer to the sport. We want them to know that they matter and we care.

KC: As a result of the women’s camp you organise have you noticed any increases in female participation in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu/No-Gi grappling or numbers attending tournaments such as ADCC trials, Mundials, Pan-Ams, NAGA and say Grapplers Quest? If so, do you think that this is a genuine increase or are you now paying more attention to the issue simply because you are more in tune with women participating and the need for more grappling opportunities for females per se?

VW: I don’t think we can directly attribute any increases to the camp – yet. As I said, we’ve only done two, and we haven’t kept track of who has attended relative to who is competing in various tournaments. But what I can say, and Emily and Felicia have experienced this as well, is that when I go to tournaments, other academies and seminars, women I run into have heard of the camp and want details about when the next one is happening. So maybe in the future we’ll be able to say with certainty that the camp has positively affected female participation in major tournaments, but for now, we just have a sense that word is getting out that the camp exists and is a resource for women who want to learn more about grappling alongside other women who want the same thing.

EK: I think the sport is growing on its own for women. The way I see our involvement, I see us supporting that growth and if anything, providing more resources for women to continue progressing.

KC: This issue of KombatClinic.com is totally devoted to females within Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu there is a definite distinction between male and female competitors right across the board in all sports, prize money and available/suitable competitions are just two examples. Next year there is to be a women’s category in the Abu Dhabi Pro 2010. This is a great step in the right direction for women’s grappling in general especially for that part of the world. Will either of you be attending?

VW: I am attending!

EK: I’m not certain what my competition schedule is yet for the coming year, but I’m glad to see that women will be included. I do think that there is a lot of inconsistency in what is offered for women and I don’t feel that we are always an important group to most tournament promoters. I hope that as we show that there are more and more women are practicing and are viable customers, that we will see more stability and inclusion.

KC: In terms of opportunities for women, what would you both like to see next if anything? Obviously the issue of a lack of women at the higher end of belts in BJJ will come gradually with time but is there anything that you think should be removed or added into the sport of BJJ, No-Gi submission wrestling or grappling in general that would bring male and female events closer?

VW: there are still discrepancies in prize money and number of weight classes for female compared to male competitors. Maybe the latter is an issue that will resolve itself as more women enter the sport and fill out the weight classes, But the former continues to be a shame for many reasons, not the least of which is that women’s matches are consistently as technical, exciting to watch, and full of heart as the men’s matches.

EK: I would really appreciate more media coverage given to women.  I think the ladies that make it to the top deserve to be recognized just as much as the men.  We are often given minimal coverage in some publications, but I truly believe that the audience out there desires more than that.  I hope to see more interviews and photographs showcasing the top performers and promoting things like our camp for other females and males to see.  If people see that there is a healthy community of female grapplers, I think it will encourage others to stay involved or become more actively involved.

KC: Have you any ideas to get more exposure and coverage for female events that would ultimately help generate more interest for women to take up grappling?

EK: I think it’s time for us to take matters into our own hands and offer more. We can’t wait for everyone else to pay attention; I think we have enough momentum to create more outlets ourselves in our smaller communities.  There are internet forums, mailing lists and blogs that female grapplers are posting information on. I think we have a decent grass roots campaign!

VW: As I mentioned before, I actually think the UFC is helping with that. I also think there is and will be a snowball effect. Felicia designed the t-shirts for the camp, and the design depicts a 3-pointed star (one point for her, one for Emily, and one for me) with many other, lighter points radiating out as well. The idea is that the three of us touch the women at the camp, and those women then go on and make connections with the women in their communities, until we take over the world! Just kidding, of course. But the idea is that we help other women feel empowered to make a meaningful contribution to their own corner of the grappling world – helping men and women alike – and it becomes the gift that keeps on giving.

KC: I think we have established that grappling is a very male orientated world; products are released almost monthly by top-level male athletes from books, instructional DVD’s and DVD’s celebrating accomplishments and legacies, indeed over the last few months and into Spring 2010 we would have had three huge releases (Renzo Gracie: Legacy, The Gracie’s and the birth of Vale Tudo and a new project by Daren Bartlett, Roger Gracie: Victory movie). Whilst these films are great and well deserved, are there any women that deserve the same credit, coverage and celebration in your opinion?

VW: So many. Emily and Felicia, to name two. Penny Thomas. Ana Laura Cordeiro. Lana Stefanac. Cindy Omatsu, the first American female black belt. Luca Diaz, who has been around the scene for many years and paved the way for many of us. And there are tons of up and comers as well, like Hillary Williams.

EK: I think there is a market for female DVD’s and documentaries.  Some females in this sport have amazing stories to tell. Leticia Ribeiro, Luciana Diaz, Penny Thomas, Hannette Staack… hearing Val and Felicia’s stories made me see that it takes a certain type of person to accomplish and overcome some of the personal battles that they’ve had in order to be where they are now.  We are not so much in the mainstream since it’s tough to get media coverage at times, but a lot of those names are recognized because of their longevity and perseverance in the field.

KC: Have you guys any thoughts on taking the women’s camp overseas and outside of the US and Canada? Maybe Europe bound? Or even to coincide with the Abu Dhabi Pro 2010 what with it being the first year female entrants have been included? (Great exposure)…

VW: I think we’d all love to do this. A grappling friend of mine from way back lives in South Africa now, and he and I have discussed the possibility of doing a camp there in the next year or so. As the camp grows and we get better at running it, there’s no reason we couldn’t take it global. The sky is the limit!

EK: I think in the long term we’d love to see it develop along those lines. Right now I believe our focus is on really making this camp something real to all of us. We’ve just gotten over the fact that there is a market for it! Lol

KC: Val and Emily, thank you very much for taking time out to talk about your work on your women’s grappling camps is there anything else you would like to add before we finish or maybe individuals you would care to thank?

EK: there are many, many people to thank, Felicia, Val and all my instructors and team-mates the last 9 years. A few notables: Roy Duquette – for introducing me to the sport and being the first person to believe in my abilities, Alaina Hardie- for believing in us and helping me open my eyes to the legacy we are a part of, and Gerry Hurtado – for always pushing me forward and never letting me falter.

VW: Felicia, Emily, and Alaina, of course. I also want to stress that just because I’m interested in promoting women in grappling, that doesn’t mean that I don’t appreciate the many men who have made my grappling experiences possible. I owe so many people a debt of gratitude, and I’ll just name a few of them, specifically my instructors over the years: Carlson Gracie, Jr., Johnny Ramirez, John Ouano, Cristian Lopez, Chris Woolford, Shawn Williams, Sean Patrick Flanery, Ryan Fiorenzi, Julian Loredo, and the late, great Carlson Gracie. Each of these people has given me something that has furthered me along my grappling path, and I am forever grateful.

KC: All the best with the camps and thanks for your time!

Possible links:
womensgrappling.org